What is a Good Life? #95
Fully Embodying Your Life with Madelaine Ley
On the 95th episode of the What is a Good Life? podcast, I am delighted to introduce our guest, Madelaine Ley. Madelaine is a philosopher, spiritual ecologist, and contemplative artist. Her diverse work includes lecturing at Delft University of Technology and the Lassonde School of Engineering in Canada on digital citizenship, responsible AI, intersectional approaches to technology, and robot ethics; hosting Sacred Sessions—non-religious gatherings that blend philosophy, art, science, contemplative practice, and collective reflection; writing and podcasting for Beauty in the Mire; and experimenting with contemplative art. In 2022, she was named one of the “100 Brilliant Women in AI Ethics” by Lighthouse3 and has been featured by the BBC, Leidsch Dagblad, Yes! Magazine, and Life Itself, as well as being funded by The European Pavilion, Horizon 2020, and the Social Science Research Council of Canada.
In this inspiring conversation, Madelaine shares how she is deepening her awareness of her embodied experience of life. We discuss how the birth of her daughter revealed an inner bravery, while also exploring the importance of embracing grief, along with the profound grounding and lessons she received from her spiritual mentor in embodying agenda-free presence and resisting the urge to fix or give advice.
This whole conversation is a wonderful invitation to pay attention to your felt experience of life and to recognise the wisdom our bodies can offer.
The weekly clip from the podcast (3 mins), my weekly reflection (3 mins), the full podcast (62 mins), and the weekly questions all follow below.
1. Weekly Clip from the Podcast
2. My weekly reflection
There is an expression Madelaine uses in this interview that I absolutely adore: agenda-free presence.
Agenda. Free. Presence.
When I write or utter these words with a little pause around them, it feels very spacious to me, liberating me from so many of the undertones, expectations, and, indeed, agendas that are so prevalent in today’s culture.
The example she gives of demonstrating this is when she used to visit boarding homes weekly in Toronto and felt she had to somehow help or contribute to the lives of the people she was speaking with. A good intention that her spiritual mentor, Reverend Roger Hunter, didn’t deem necessary or helpful to the relationships.
Bringing the intention of fixing others or giving advice would merely get in the way of really meeting and connecting with another.
This led to a shift in Madelaine, from trying to fill the silence with words to ultimately resting into the silences when they occurred.
Her mentor noted in these circumstances that the people in these homes were experiencing a poverty of companionship and that agenda-free presence was the way to be there for others.
If you’ve followed this newsletter for long or attended any of my weekly Silent Conversation groups, you can imagine that this resonates deeply with me.
In a world obsessed with measuring activities and experiences, we don’t know what to do with silence. We don’t know how to weigh the value of our presence, the value of us merely being in each other’s company.
If I am not spreading this reflection too thin and fast, I find it quite sad how much we devalue the significance of us simply being here, now. To me, it speaks to the idea that we are simply not enough as we are; we must perform, we must do something, say something, give an insight or a one-liner that will make an impact.
I am not sure when and where this happened, that we seemingly have to justify our presence. However, I am finding stunning shifts in the way I relate to others, safe in the knowledge and experience that the most valuable thing I can bring is my presence and attention.
Whether words or silence flow from that presence is irrelevant. The key observation I would make is whether there is an agenda behind those words or not—even if your agenda was just to keep the conversation going. I am sure we can all relate to that experience of trying to keep a conversation going and the stale, dry, and sterile affair it typically becomes.
We put all this effort into seemingly building rapport or a relationship, but how could we be doing such a thing when all we are doing is mentally reacting and planning how to keep the silences at bay?
I remember clearly a participant at a silent conversation I hosted who stated, “Words don’t break the silence, but an agenda does.”
Whether we have announced it or not, regardless of how clever or veiled we perceive our efforts to be, and regardless of what our agenda is, whether we consider it a good or bad intention, I work off the assumption that we can feel it so clearly when it is present.
When you are part of an agenda-free conversation, the difference is so stark, the levels of freedom so vast, and the sense of connection so clear that whenever there is a whiff of an agenda present, it couldn’t be more obvious. However, I suspect that such encounters are still vastly in the minority, so therefore, if that’s all we know, it is harder to detect.
However, just like when you start to spend time in circles where people are being more authentic, it can be just as jarring to be around people who aren’t. Whether it’s listening to someone in a public role, someone at work, etc., you don’t even have to know the specifics of the content to feel how disingenuous something is.
Until we go to these agenda-free places with each other in our relationships, our relationships will continue to be restricted by the agendas that we bring to them. Whether wittingly or not, we will continue to attempt to manoeuvre each other around on our conversational chessboards, attempting to win, maybe highlight our perceived strengths, convince, or hide from each other.
While I understand the context in which the expression poverty of companionship was used earlier, from my perspective, regardless of the number of relationships we have in our lives, if we are not willing to drop our incessant agendas or simply allow silences to blossom—instead of forcing words—the depths of our relationships will never be met, nor the considerable value of our mere presence.
The attention we give from that presence is the most valuable gift we can give one another. Once experienced, there can be little doubt as to what is really of value.
3. Full Episode - Fully Embodying Your Life with Madelaine Ley - What is a Good Life? #95
Click here for Apple and Amazon
4. This week’s Questions
Can you tell me in units or numbers how much you love your partner, child, parents, or friends?
When is the last time you felt your body give you really strong guidance? Did you listen?
About Me
I am a coach, podcast host, and writer, based in Berlin, via Dublin, Ireland. I started this project in 2021, for which I’ve now interviewed over 200 people. I’m not looking to prescribe universal answers, more that the guests’ lines of inquiry, musings, experiences, and curiosities spark your own inquiry into what the question means to you. I am also trying to share more genuine expressions of the human experience and more meaningful conversations.
If you would like to work with me to explore your own lines of self-inquiry, take part in my weekly free silent conversations, discuss experiences I create to stimulate greater trust, communication, and connection, amongst your teams, or you simply want to get in touch, here’s my email and LinkedIn.